Re: Response to the Response

To Jerry LR Chandler and others in response

> > A) On the relation between thermodynamical entropy and informational entropy:
> >
> > 1. Information entropy is the more general concept.
>
> As thermodynamic entropy is a measurable quantity and informational
> entropy a mathematical abstraction, is it desirable to compare the
> generality of the two concepts?
> What advantage is gained from this comparison?
I had in mind here not the measurable quantity but the theoretical model.
That means I compared the Boltzmann-Gibbs expression (which refers to the
physical phase space) with the Shannon expression which refers to any
space and is in that sense (and only in that) more general.
> >
> > 5. The quantitative aspect of the information transfer from
> > sender to receiver (not the pragmatic aspect, not the meaning !),
> > is measured by the transfer of entropy. \\
>
> Is this also true for the material objects, such as a drug molecule or a
> toxic chemical? That is, is the entropy (heat capacity) of a molecule
> related to the informational content for the organism?
Certainly this is not true. Information flow is connected by transfer
of physical entropy (proof by Maxwell and by Szilard), but the oppisite
is not true. Heat flow is not infromation flow.

> > 6. The amount of energy transfer in information-processing
> > is in general not relevant, but there exist constraints from physics.
>
> One implication of this generalization is that the amount of energy our
> brains burn in order to process information is unimportant; but is this
> consistent with the physical evidence of EEG observations on excited and
> comatose patients?
I do not see any conflict.

> > B) Properties of information and relation between information and life
> >
> > 1. Information can have two basic forms:
> > - free information, is what is transferred betweem sender and receiver,
> > - bound information, is a structure which is an actual or potential
> > information carrier.
>
> Is it necessary that both the sender and the receiver be dynamical
> systems which are organized to communicate?
I agree with Hermann Haken who stated that both partners have to be dynamical
systems.

> How does the character of 'bound' information relate to heat capacity?
This is not so clear to me. Bound information is somehow connected with
multistability (the ability of memorizing)
> Is bound information countable?
I believe, it is a very little part of the real entropy. The information
content of DNA changes also the physical entropy, but this is an
extremely small contribution to the total entropy.

How does the term 'carrier' relate to
> the terms 'sender' and 'receiver'?
I would apply this term (carrier) only to bound information, to records,
DNA molecules etc. Something, which in connection with a receiver is a
potential source of free information.

> >
> > 2. Bound information is always connected with with a definite material
> > structure as e.g. DNA, free information is abstract/symbolic. Free information
> > is to a high degree independent from the carrier}.
> >
> > 3. Free information is connected with meaning and with goals (Zweck).
> > This is the pragmatic aspect of information processing.
>
> Is the implication that bound information is *NOT* associated with
> goals?
This seems to me true !!!!!!!!!
> When an organism (a structure with Zweck) seeks a nutrient (another
> structure), is this free or bound information?
This is connected with information exchange which is always "free
information".

> >
> > 5. There is no life without information-processing. Information-processing
> > is a 'conditio sine qua non' for life. Life star(t)s with the ability to
> > create, to process, to store and to transfer free information.
>
> Some examples here would be very helpful.
> (I would have thought just the opposite - that life started with
> structural chemicals with electrostatic affinities for one another.)
We believe that the chemicals convert into "life" only at the moment when
information-processing starts; this we understand as an discrete act
(a sudden qualitative change). We were unable to find any example of
information processing which is not (directly or indirectly) connected
with forms of life. Who knows at least on counterexample ?????
> > >
> > 7. In course of evolution several 'phase transitions' from
> > bound to free information are observed.
> > Some examples here would be very helpful. Physically, living systems
> are extremely heterogeneous...more like a 'glass' than a crystal.
We do not think about thermodynamic phase transitions, but on its
analogy in the theory of nonlinear dynamic systems, the so-called
kinetic transitions, i.e. qualitative changes/bifurcations.

> I find the distinction between free and bound information to be unique
> and novel. But I need alot of help in relating it to thermodynamic,
> chemical or other quantifiable quantities. The term 'processing' often
> implies a mathematical map or function; is that the intent here?
Its not the same, but could be related.
We think, that information processing is an emergent phenomenon
in the sense of say H. Simon, Anderson and others, a new quality
emerging in a complex systems.

Best regards to all of you and thanks for the very well-posed questions

Werner

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Prof. W. Ebeling ebeling@physik.hu-berlin.de
Humboldt-Universitaet Berlin phone: +49/(0)30-2093 7636
Institut fuer Physik fax: +49/(0)30-2093 7638
Invalidenstrasse 110
D-10115 Berlin
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Received on Thu Jan 22 18:25:07 1998