Re: Phy-Soc Information Layer boundaries

Ted and fis-lers,
here some comments, so that we may continue to grow together:

Goranson wrote:
>...allows us to posit an anti-entropic (or extropic)
>mechanics. Here, "lost information" instead of being lost, adds to the
form
>and strength of the law at work. The clock creates itself and the laws
>under which it operates by being and operating as a clock.

G.St:
"extropic" is not a usual expression, I think it was already introduced
calling it "anatropic". But that4s not my main point. I agree with adding
in stead of losing information: thats done, as we know, by synergy and
self-organisation effects.

>....for now, let's just look at implications for
>the social/cultural level. I suppose that the situation is not a simple
>layer cake with fundamental particles at the bottom and societies at the
>top. Instead, this is a circular collection. The top/bottom layer is what
>we've filled with the blunt concept of God.
>The leverage here is that we now have a layer above the social/cultural
>layer and an outline for an info(3) which are the extropic principles. It
>is the analogy of the observer status except the observer is the universe.

Theyr is no doubt that the layer-approach is useful, when seen as a
circular one. You argue to look at the interesting "places" on bounderies
between the layers, to complete fis-vision created in Vienna. I second this
ideia. But we know also, that when you do the cicle between the layers you
will have to put together the first with the last one, i.e. psico-socios
and physics. "God" or "accident" (Zufall) had to be invoced to explain.
Thats, I think you will agree, where we all (fis-lers or not) struggle. We
did not connect yet these gaps, because energy-transformation betweenn
psi-soc and phy was not descovered. Now, that we know that there is
information-energy, I will call it just information, we can build upon it.
Is it not that what fis tries to do?

>---information is not only the principle around which systems organize
>within laws, but is also the principle around which the universe organizes
>those laws;

You confirm that information organizes at the phy-soc boundary.

>
>---once again, examination of the social/cultural layer is the high payoff
>area here, this time on the boundary above;

You confirm that some of the fis-questions may be "solved" by
boundary-research.

So let me take this argument to try to lead to something essential:What4s
that boundary4s nature?

Resuming original fis-thoughts produced in a project with Hofkirchner,
Fenzl et al. at the TU Vienna, boundaries are "methods" to put together
different layers of evolution. Yet, the layers-approach is productive only
when connected soc to bio or bio-phy. But it does not really work when
connecting phy-soc.
Although, some interesting theories are suggesting methods of connection.
There is e.g. the quantum-mind approach, which looks at human consciousness
as a physical field- process at the sub-atomic level. (See mail by A. Comb
to subscribe list "QM", where also literature is abundant).
Another approach comes from fis-steps themselves. I will call it the
"information-energy approach", as we do it e.g. in sociological
systems-theory (following Habermas, Luhmann a.o.).
But until now there has not been a substantial result on the comprovation
of this theories. Indeed, experiments in the soc-information field have not
been accompained suffficiently by quantum-physics, and vice-versa. So, how
to get together?

Closing my statement
Best Wishes

Gottfried Stockinger

Vienna, Austria.
Tel *43-1- 983 39 79
or
Belem, Brazil
Tel:*55 -91- 225 2140
Received on Sun Sep 27 21:06:25 1998