Pedro--Am trying to get a short comment focused as you suggest together. Hope to do it by end of day. You were right--the server here had gone berserk. But I was able to reclaim all the messages lost.
Bob Artigiani
>>> Pedro C. Marijuan <marijuan@posta.unizar.es> 10/05 5:26 AM >>>
Dear Bob
dear colleagues
Fortunately the problems with your address are over, you do not need to do
anynothing else. Your last message has directly entered into the net
(unlike the previous ones, which were rejected and I had to re-enter them
one by one--this was one of the serious reasons for the pause!). About
these other troubles you mention perhaps there are problems with your own
server (or maybe there is a virus at work).
My personal opinion on your position paper is that you have put our
discussion terribly on track: right into the middle of the socioinfo
matters. We could go ahead in quite a few directions (G. is pointing at
several of them). But previously I would love to hear your reply to Morris
last message (if you lost it, I am including it herewith). His poignant
argument on the origins of socioinfo reminds me the bioinfo problem too:
how can we conclude that a "bioinfo" new realm has taken off from a
chemical milieu? My own reply was the peptide bond within a water-matrix,
then capable of overcoming the "memory" limitations by means of nucleic
acids. Now Morris argues that it is the coupling between INVENTION and VEMS
overcoming the "memory limitations" of an oral culture what becomes the
prime socioinfo factor...
It is an intriguing observation, that parallels (as he says) some of Ted's
reflections--but in general, what sort of criteria allow us to say that
here is at work a new info realm that deserves a neat subdisciplinary
treatment? just pragmatics?
best regards
Pedro
PS. For the sake of future discussions, eg, Brier and Bela are planning a
new one, it would be good if we accepted the capacity of moderators to cool
down or to heat up discussions (either by a short pause or by entitling
them to ask opinions to anyone in the net).
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:18:03 +0100 (MET)
Reply-To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Originator: fis@listas.unizar.es
Sender: fis@listas.unizar.es
Precedence: bulk
From: morris@posta.unizar.es (Morris Villarroel) (by way of
marijuan@posta.unizar.es)
To: Multiple recipients of list <fis@listas.unizar.es>
Subject: eco-socioinfo
X-Comment: Distribution List FOUNDATIONS OF INFORMATION SCIENCE
Mime-Version: 1.0
(received from Morris Villarroel--please, check your addresses, these days
there are lots of errors!! --P.)
Dear colleagues,
Having recently read Diamond's book (guns, germs and steel), I cannot help
but having some disagreements with Bob's and Gottfried's views. Well, Bob�s
texts are really valuable because they go to the heart of the socioinfo
problem (in my opinion), but perhaps the explanatory road he advances
should start a little bit earlier -- I mean he considers socioinformation
in connection with "roles" (and then VEMS) of rather complex, specialized
societies, and there is almost no consideration of the previous social
stages: bands and tribes. His argument about the origins of agriculture is
a two-edged sword: there have been plenty of cases in which food production
has not involved specialization; and viceversa, whole tribes living close
to exceptionally rich ecosystems advanced significantly in the development
of roles, etc. (eg, salmon fisheries in the Canadian West coast).
Agriculture and husbandry were really BIG INVENTIONS forced by the BIG
EXTINCTIONS of that very period... It is not just that social "constraints"
are the prime socioinfo factor, but perhaps the "discoveries" of natural
world info... And my own thesis is that when these discoveries go
beyond the memory limitations of oral cultures, then societies (some of
them) cross the socioinfo threshold into VEMS (and hierarchies, and
burocracies...)
After the healthy pause (I believe it was OK for us to digest all the good
stuff produced these days) I have arrived to a similar point I made on the
debate about consciousness: the need to relate it to animal consciousness.
The same may be the case here.
cheers
Morris
PS. Ted, your point on (info motivated) organizational principles is very
suggestive. I believe it applies to my above thesis.
---------------
Morris Villaroel
Morris@santandersupernet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Mariju�n. TEL 34 976 761927, FAX --761861 and -- 762111
Dept. Ingen. Electronica y Comunicaciones, CPS Universidad de Zaragoza,
Maria de Luna 3, Zaragoza 50015, SPAIN
email: marijuan@posta.unizar.es
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Received on Tue Oct 6 15:29:09 1998
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