Re: kickoff

At 02:23 PM 08/05/02, you wrote:
>At 12:48 2002.05.08. +0200, you wrote:
>>At 11:24 AM 08/05/02, you wrote:
>>>(message from javorszky@EUnet.at)
>>>
>>>Dear FISers,
>>>
>>>First of all, let me thank you all for having organized this really
>>>exciting conference!
>>>
>>>Koichiro, in his discussion 'primer', has worked out the common and the
>>>different in the approaches of John, Andrei and Pedro towards the idea of
>>>information. Koichiro sums up the main ideas as I understand as follows:
>>>
>>>John talks about the actualised (present moment) fact and opposes the
>>>potential to this knowledge; Pedro remarks the predictability of the
>>>actualised, and visualises the actualised (or to-be-actualised) as embedded
>>>in the middle of the potential
>>>(knowing Pedro, one will know that he muses about symmetry); Andrei points
>>>out that the realised does have different properties to the potential.
>>>
>>>Let me propose that information is the pointing out of a specific
>>>realisation among many
>>>possible realisations. In terms of numbers: one specific arrangement of
>>>relations among numbers among many possible arrangements of relations among
>>>numbers. If we can accept this translation into number theory, then we may
>>>integrate the concepts outlined above into one consolidated model of
>>>information theory --interrelating those 'arch' principles that Pedro was
>>>mentioning...
>>
>>I agree with this. Part of my reason for distinguishing between potential and
>>expressed information is to allow for a number of alternate
>>possibilities. However,
>>the possibilities are grounded in some actuality, preventing them from being
>>'mere' possibilities, which in themselves have no dynamical consequences.
>>Assuming that dynamics can be translated into number theory (I don't
>>think this
>>is impossible; I translated it into abstract information theory, which is
>>not so
>>far away). The reverse translation, I think, does not work. Numbers are
>>not dynamical
>>entities.
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>----------
>>Dr John Collier john.collier@kla.univie.ac.at
>>Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution and Cognition Research
>>Adolf Lorenz Gasse 2 +432-242-32390-19
>>A-3422 Altenberg Austria Fax: 242-32390-4
>>http://www.kli.ac.at/research.html?personal/collier
>>
>
>Dear John, (and the others)
>
>Introducing "dynamical consequences" may lead us to dangerous domains; far
>from our original goal at this e-conference.
>The word "dynamic" is used in different terms.

Quite. Mathematicians use it to refer to anything with a dt or delta. This
is derivative from ancient uses in physics. It is an unfortunate muddying
of a clear notion. In nay case, I meant dynamical in the causal sense. I
did not intend to raise these difficulties. Unfortunately, there is no
other word that is captures the notion I intended. Causal is to broad, and
force is too narrow. There is another word that refers to the temporal
sense, and it is "kinetic". Another is "diachronic". That mathematicians
have chosen a more specific word to generalize, when there were perfectly
good specific words seems to me to have been a folly on the order of
calling information capacity "entropy". Bui I suppose we are now stuck with it.

Can anyone suggest a new word for the specifically causal notion?
Preferably one that is too ugly to be appropriated :-)

John

>In some cases it means like "temporal" or "affected by time".
>In other cases it is used when physical (machanical) forces are concerned.
>Moverover, some use this term in certain third - at least for me -
>infdefinite meaning.
>Taking an example from my narrower realms:
>Can you tell us, what is the common in the dynamic symmetry concept
>introduced by the mathematician Hambidge, and the dynamic symmetry concept
>by the physicist Wigner?
>
>I do not want to orient the discussion in this direction, only warn to the
>difficulties, if we involve 'dynamics'.
>
>Anyway, I support the rest of the idea,
>
>Gyuri

----------
Dr John Collier john.collier@kla.univie.ac.at
Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution and Cognition Research
Adolf Lorenz Gasse 2 +432-242-32390-19
A-3422 Altenberg Austria Fax: 242-32390-4
http://www.kli.ac.at/research.html?personal/collier
Received on Thu May 9 16:13:56 2002