Re: info & physics

From: Gyorgy Darvas <[email protected]>
Date: Mon 13 May 2002 - 16:33:31 CEST

Dear Pedro, Dear FISers,

I support most of your ideas below. I would like to discuss only one issue
in it, mainly, that 'informational existences start only with the biological.'

[Of course, your statement depends much on our definition on information.
Prior to our e-conference I was nearer to believe that we had a more or
less well shaped idea on the nature of information. During the last week I
feel a deepening hole, what we mean on information. It seems, it turned
out, that our (participants' ) information-concepts are more distant from
each other, than I supposed. The concept seems less elaborated, and less
meeting the requirements of a convention, than I expected. No problem, this
was one of the goals of this e-conference, to understand each other better.]

Returning to the informational existence and the symmetry content of beings.
According to me, the evolution of matter is a sequence of symmetry
breakings. This concerns all levels, both in the inanimate and the organic
nature. This is not an attribute of the "biological existence" only.

Permanent symmetry breaking determines a direction of the material
evolution: from the more symmetric states to the less symmetric ones. (A
geometric example: a regular triangle has 3 mirror-reflection axes and a
3-fold rotational symmetry. 3 regular triangles are characterised with the
same symmetries. If we link the 3 regular triangles in a ring, the
individual triangles will lose a few of their symmetries, [while new
symmetries of the "molecule", as of a new entity, will occur].)

Something similar happens at every stage where new structures are generated
from the entities of a preceding level. The preceding states of matter are
more symmetric, more ordered. The new stages are less symmetric, less
ordered. Can we say that the whole universe evolves from an ordered to a
less ordered state? What about entropy? Does this mean, that entropy would
continously decrease along the evolution of matter?

Our law on entropy increase was formulated for the whole world, and/or for
closed systems, which do not exchange matter with their environment.
Insofar we considered, that entropy may decrease locally in certain small
volumes of the universe, but this was exceptional compared to the whole
system. We could neglect it.

We can not!

New material structures come into existence just in these relatively small
capsules of the universe, where the evolution of matter takes place. Just
in these small environments, where the most important events take place,
can one not apply the laws formulated for the closed systems. These
relatively small environments dissipate energy, break locally symmetry,
create the new organisational structures, and concentrate information. This
process shows a similar character starting with the formation of the
sub-elementary particles, through atomisation to molecules, and further to
the organic and the macromolecules, which play the determinant role in the
formation of the living matter, then the cells, etc.

Conclusions:
- we detect similar processes in the inanimate and the organic nature from
the aspect of information;
- new material structures are generated, and information gets concentrated
in certain small spatial environments, what can be considered as
topological neighbourhoods of singularities from the aspect of the
prevailing laws.

Sorry, if I was too long (although this does not excuse me for the
abstract, what I missed to submit),
Best,

Gyuri

At 14:57 2002.05.13._ +0200, you wrote:
>Dear Gente FIS,
>
>Having read Andrei's and John's I have some comments.
>
>Andrei�s paper has a central goal in my view: linking the reflection on
>information to a host of 'new physics' themes: non-demolition measurement,
>decoherence and scaling, iteration, optimization and power laws, 'golden
>numbers'... While John focuses in physical entropy and information theory
>(Gatlin-Brooks-Willey) to establish, with some other systems' thinking, a
>conceptual cluster -cohesion, components, level, etc.- to help escalating
>along a hierarchy of evolving info systems.
>
>There are many details and questions I would love asking face-to-face; and
>also I could mark quite many coincidences. But there is more fun
>emphasizing the differences. The central one -exaggerating- is that both
>ways of thought are physically oriented, and are trying to incardinate info
>on physical grounds. I disagree with that enterprise.
>
>My own position is that 'informational' existences (which start only with
>the biological) are characterized by an unending adaptation of their
>structures to the environment, mediating an ad hoc flow of communication,
>which impinges upon and controls a plethora of synthesis and degradation
>processes -somehow in my paper I reelaborate the three 'info genera' theme.
>There is a monumental autonomy from physics involved (although not complete
>independence, of course) for these entities temporary emerging to existence
>out from the overall structural, generative and communicational info game.
>Coinciding with Andrei, there is a specific signature or 'cannon' of
>special power laws (which I deduce out from Javorszky's partitional
>algebra) appearing as the general mark derived from such unending adaptive
>game performed by the informational entities in their niches--see Morris
>Villarroel paper in this e-conf. too. The paradoxical 'evanescent
>permanence' of info entities would be achieved through a massive
>partitional game, we think...
>
>To sum up, my very partisan view is that info conceptualizations are
>separated well enough from physical ones (see the intriguing Roederer's
>e-conf. paper too!); and that perhaps we should emphasize as a goal,
>convergent research by fisers on EMPIRICAL grounds upon three paradigmatic
>info existentialities: CELLS, BRAINS, FIRMS.
>
>Let me add that the explicit addition of Firms as a basic field for fis
>empirical research stems out from a recent exchange of views I had with
>business-school researchers in Barcelona. Exploring the info nature of
>firms appears as a fascinating topic: e.g., their 'evanescent permanence'
>achieved through bookeeping records based on symmetry and symmetry breaking
>in their exchanges with the niche...
>
>best wishes
>
>Pedro
>
>
>=========================================
>Pedro C. Mariju�n
>Fundaci�n CIRCE
>CPS Univ. Zaragoza, 50018 Zaragoza, Spain
>TEL. (34) 976 762036-761863, FAX (34) 976 732078
>email: marijuan@posta.unizar.es
>=========================================

___________________________________________________________________
Gyorgy Darvas darvasg@helka.iif.hu; h492dar@ella.hu
                        http://www.mtakszi.iif.hu/darvas.htm
S Y M M E T R I O N http://us.geocities.com/isis_symmetry/ [email protected]
Address: c/o MTA KSZI; 18 Nador St., Budapest, H-1051 Hungary
Mailing address: P.O. Box 994, Budapest, H-1245 Hungary
Fax: 36 (1) 331-3161 Phone: 36 (1) 312-3022; 36 (1)
331-3975
___________________________________________________________________
Received on Mon May 13 15:37:08 2002

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