Re: Marijuan and Darvas Comments

Dear Pedro and James,

I support, that there was an unprecedented qualitative "mutation" (jump,
cesura) in the evolution, when life came into existence. (Although I could
not indentify, in molecular sense, in which stage this new quality was
produced.) At the same time, other, minor qualitative changes occured even
earlier and later, too.

To attribute information to physical systems was always quite natural for
me, as physicist. I had not supposed, that others restricted information
only to living systems. (Of course, this is diffenernt type information,
but it is information.)

I agree, that we should classify information [then find again what is
common in them]. Within that, let's allow the class of structural
information, some (not so much definite) class of intrinsic information,
and - in this sense - we can set up further classes.

I cannot agree "...in the objective, intrinsic, observer-independent sense
..": Observer-dependent sense is not objective. Just this is, what we call
subjective.

I disagree, that "there simply was no information at all before the origin
of life, because there were no systems yet able to enter into the right
sort of dynamical interactions that are in fact constitutive of
information-use"

1. Dynamical interactions characterise physical processes as well. (This is
what I mentioned a few days ago in this discussion, that involving the
different usages of the term "dynamical" can diversificate our discussion.)

2. Concerning information before life:

Interpretations of classical quantum mechanics (QM) were shaped along the
interpretation of the role of measurement. Measuring means to gain
information from an object or a system of objects. Physicists in each lab
are engaged with collecting information. (So do chemists as well.)

This information may be structural (e.g., we observe that this atom
consists of a two protons + two neutrons nuclei and two electrons, then we
can conclude, this is He).
This information may be dynamical, (when we observe that a particle moves
with a given speed, has a given mass, momentum, etc., it produces a
spectrum, what provides us information about its magnetic moment, spin,
charge, other quantum numbers, etc), i.e., information abut its geometrical
and intrinsic (dynamic) properties.

The description of the classical QM is based on the state functions (wawe
functions) assigned to the individual physical units. A state function can
be represented by a column, where we list, under each other, the values of
the different properties, what can characterise that unit. Each of these
properties can actualise one from a set of values. This set of possible
values can be calculated by the Schr�dinger equation (eigenvalues). Each
measurement provides us with a spectrum of the probabilities, how often the
measured proeperty takes the individual values of that set. This is our
(dynamic) information on that physical unit. (There are many information
condensed in that unit, and we can gain only a part of that information
[capacity] during a given measurement.)

Structural and intrinsic properties together determine the possible ways of
interaction, the given object may interact with its environment (with other
objects in its environment). When we forecast, that during the planned
experiment the lab will explode, or the planned sequence of events will
occur, we evaluate the information, what we had collected on the
participating agents. The (possible) interactions of a given physical unit
with its environment are determined by the information (capacity - using
the term after John Collier) condensed in it. (Even a physical object
"evaluates" and "selects" the information it receives from the other before
it interacts with an other object. It will never ineract violating laws of
nature.) The amount of this information (capacity) increases during the
evolution, thus more complex systems are able for more sophisticated
interactions. There are qualitative demarcation lines in this evolution
process. No doubt, the greatest cesura were when the life, then when the
human thought came into existence.

Interpretations of the classical QM realised early the difference between
the structural and the dynamic informations gained from the physical
objects and processes. Therefore they replaced the role of the "object" by
the role of the "event". An event is, where the dynamic interaction takes
place, since we can get information only from interacting objects. (The
process of information gaining, i.e., the measurement itself, is also a
kind of interaction - now with the instrument.)

I hope I was clear enough in defending inorganic information. I hope I
could help to reconcile the "two viewpoints".

Best, Gyuri

___________________________________________________________________
Gyorgy Darvas darvasg@helka.iif.hu; h492dar@ella.hu
                        http://www.mtakszi.iif.hu/darvas.htm
S Y M M E T R I O N http://us.geocities.com/isis_symmetry/ [email protected]
Address: c/o MTA KSZI; 18 Nador St., Budapest, H-1051 Hungary
Mailing address: P.O. Box 994, Budapest, H-1245 Hungary
Fax: 36 (1) 331-3161 Phone: 36 (1) 312-3022; 36 (1)
331-3975
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Received on Tue May 14 12:08:15 2002