Vedr.: Re: info & physics

S�ren Brier wrote:

Dear Rafael

Part of the debate is about the necessary ontological framework. But as you state it is not clear what a pan-informational or pan-semiotic view means.- I do not find any of them useful if it makes everything into information or signs. I agree with Edwina that in a Peircian ontology the three categories are basic evolutionary categories of nature, but I also interpret Peirce in the way that we can have Secondness by itself ontologically and that we can have Thirdness without having a genuine sign. Peirce writes that he is hylozoist, meaning that there is an inner immanent aspect of energy and matter that is firstness and therefore pure feeling. He also makes clear that and the "the law of mind" (self-organization) and the tendency to take habits (Thirdness) are omnipresent. Thus we can talk about proto signs and quasi signs in nature and that is what I call signals and information. They primarily manifest Secondness. In the living systems the pure feeling manifest in such a!
 degree that it is possible to create interpretants through Thirdness processes. Any regularity in nature implies Thirdness, but to manifest signs you also have to manifest Firstness on a new level.

S�ren Brier, +45 3528 2689

http://www.flec.kvl.dk/personalprofile.asp?id=sbr&p=engelsk

Ed. of Cybernetics & Human Knowing

http://www.imprint-academic.com/C&HK

>>> capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de 20-05-02 16:01 >>>
Karl,

what we are discussing now (concerning
the physical/biological/psychical...) status
of information are less theological and
more ontological or metaphysical questions.
The question of being underlies this
discussion, for better for worse.
Of course it is possible to say: everything
that is, is information (as we can say:
everything that is, is matter or whatever).
This can be understood in several ways:
1) things (or: what is) are information (similar
to Pythagoras: things are numbers)
2) there are some things that are informational
(particularly: that exist as 'digital' information)
3) we can look at things (including nature)
from the point of view of information (i.e. of
informational processes) but this does not
imply that they are only information.
The first thesis is a metaphysical one, the
second should be considered within a broader
ontology, the third implies that we may
project reality within the horizon of information
abut also within the horizon of matter etc.
If we understand by information a process
of selection out of a message (which is indeed
also the terminology used by Shannon) then
we can say that we are already involved in a
natural information process (the theological
question being then how it is possible to
send a message to 'nothing' i.e. a message
that 'creates' and not simply 'informs' the
receiver...). Of course the concept of message
(implying a sender, a receiver, a structure to
be 'interpreted'/selected and... an address!)
is basic. The complexity of human messages
is indeed of different kind (but not simply
opposed or even contradictory...) to the complexity
of, say, a DNA-messenger or of a quantum state.
What I am trying to say is that the (modern)
paradigm of message communication (underlying
in different ways the concept(s) of information)
is (seems to me) basic for our scientific view
of nature and society and... it seems to be
highly productive too, independently of the
ontological/metaphysical (and theological)
discussion...

Is this somehow acceptable for further discussion?

Rafael

Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro, FH Stuttgart, Hochschule der Medien (HdM)
University of Applied Sciences, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
E-Mail: capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de; rafael@capurro.de
Tel. : +49 - 711 - 25 706 - 182
Universit�t Stuttgart, Institut f�r Philosophie, Dillmannstr. 15, 70049 Stuttgart, Germany
Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany. Tel.: +49 - 721 - 98 22 9 -22 (fax: -21)
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Received on Tue May 21 13:03:28 2002