Re: [Fis] Tom Stonier

Dear Chris
Dear Ted
I was in Vienna years ago, met Tom and we had a great time together with my
friend FRANZ NAHRADA (to whom I CC:)
Franz might know right-away. I will think about the article and search a
little. MAYBE you can give a littel more context and details and stay in
touch !?

TED WROTE:
> > "Music" of this type exists because self-organizing systems do. The
> > most fundamental operation in any cognitive apparatus (human to
> > molecular) is symmetry-based, which is why Leyton finds group theory
> > natural to describe the aggregative organizing effect of information.
> > Fiber groups lend themselves well to his interest (memory and
> > situation) and my FIS interest (derived abstractions). There are
> > bundles that are formed internal to agents and those collectively
> > among agents. Where Michael doesn't go but FIS must is in looking at
> > how those abstractions define evolutionary mechanics at "lower"
> > levels of governance. And so, here we are with Jerry Chandler's
> > arguments of the importance of categories and functors across
> > abstractions (as bundles).
> >
> > Sorry for the length, Ted
> > --
> > Ted Goranson

Dear TED
Is Artigiani on this list:??? maybe we can connect an old reference in here:
ARTIGIANI / LASZLO:
... Changing Visions': This book, with the sub-title: Human Cognitive Maps -
Past, Present,
and Future', (Laszlo, Artigiani, et al.) is basic to understanding the ...
http://benking.de/meta-paradigm.htm
or here:
Prepared as an Invited Keynote Address: Culture of Peace - ...
... world-views. A good primer for this subject is the book `Changing
Visions'
by Laszlo, Artigiani, Combs, Cs�nyi (1996). The author ...
http://benking.de/Culture_of_Peace.htm

we are one in this, maybe we check out some work we do/did some years ago at
the MOZARTEUM in Salzburg and what we tried in Altenberg at KLI :
*********

I base to some degree on PAUL WEISS and JAY KLINE. Maybe if you know that
you can see pattern fields or overlaying senses with me some day - as in
such
models we can make concrete the individual and collective "access and
assimilation" KLUWER 1989 or so:
GeoJournal 26
The Integrity Papers - James N. Rose, Genre Heiner Benking US Website.
GeoJournal
26.3 323-334 � 1992 (March) Access and Assimilation: Access and
Assimilation: ...
www.ceptualinstitute.com/genre/ benking/aa/acc&assim.htm - 63k - Cached -
Similar pages

visualization.htm
... European Networks (TEN) project, MOSAIC, devoted to Multimedia Access to
Europe's ... e-mail:
kim_veltman@hotmail.com Heiner Benking has an engineering degree and ...
www.ceptualinstitute.com/genre/benking/ visual/visualization.htm

Yes Jerry is a great guy, I think he was with us in Granada last year and
was quite fast "focussing the antennas"...: ISKO, Granada: but I am not sure
(is he part of FIS!??)
http://benking.de/granda2002-dateien/frame.htm
where we focussed on the representation and ethics "conundrum"

I will also CC to PARKER ROSSMAN and ARUN as what you are struggling with
has mcuh to do with the FUTURE OF THE UNIVERSITY project trilogy:
http://ecolecon.missouri.edu/globalresearch/chapters/3-05.html

cheers
Heiner
http://coforum.de/index.php4?HeinerBenking

> Friends
>
> I am a new FISitor.
>
> I will lurk for a while. However, i joined while in search for an article
> by
> Tom Stonier. Some 3 -4 years ago i found an article in which he sketched
> (over the course of some 7 -8 pages) the outlines of his departure point
> on
> the nature of the universe. I lost the aritcle in one of the numerous
> catastrophes with changing and unstable operating systems. Despite the
> fact
> that i lack a detailed reference i sense that members of this list may be
> able to point me in the right direction.
>
>
> kind regards
>
>
> chris k
>
> PS There is a mature courteousness evident on your list that is very
> appealing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Goranson" <tedg@sirius-beta.com>
> To: "fis-listas.unizar.es" <fis@listas.unizar.es>
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 2:59 AM
> Subject: [Fis] Music, Leyton, Governance (Longish)
>
>
> > Friends-
> >
> > Forgive me as I try to integrate more than one FIS thread among those
> > pinging about in my brain.
> >
> > I greatly appreciate that the topic has shifted to music. It seems
> > different enough that we may actually get some fresh perspectives,
> > especially with the entry of the new-to-FIS views of Michael Leyton.
> >
> > First a disclaimer: I know Leyton's work and so admire it am
> > incorporating it into an agenda of my own somewhat alien to
> > Michael's. And as I have said on this list, those three foci:
> > Leyton's own imperative, my application need and the focus of the FIS
> > group may be useful complements but it would be a mistake (for me) to
> > conflate or confuse them.
> >
> > As I understand the FIS agenda, it takes a fresh look at the nature
> > of the "message" in certain phenomenon and looks for new laws that
> > pertain to that "information" rather than the behavior usually
> > associated with it. In many cases, this will involve redefining or
> > even creating a new notion of that message: for instance in the
> > "dialog" among molecules.
> >
> > Juan's approach to music starts with the phenomenon of the carrier,
> > an approach one would expect of a physicist. I, of course, agree with
> > most everything he says. Michael does the opposite: starting with how
> > the receiver is affected by and incorporates the message, developing
> > a notion of information in the context of history/memory/situation
> > and then projecting backwards into the nature of the message. This
> > also is understandable as from a cognitive scientist. As I say, I
> > find this latter approach extremely useful because (my speculation
> > here:) it fits ANY kind of message, allows a concise ALGEBRA over
> > history and information, and as I will conclude below can describe
> > memory of systems as well as individuals.
> >
> > But Michael's success comes at the cost of the FIS agenda. He can
> > impute the token of information as an element of the history and stop
> > there. FISers can make something of that imputation and define
> > information tokens in the "pure" as Stonier and Conrad would have it,
> > or look at the grammar of that information as Matsuno and Marijuan
> > do. I'm up for that: enthused about it. But I have to keep in mind
> > that it may not be in Michael's program to do so, because everything
> > in his argument depends on the situating of the tokens.
> >
> > But yet, let's try. And here I wish to bring in another thread: the
> > structure of science and government.
> >
> > (Note to Michael: the FIS list often goes off on tangents from the
> > programmed topic, usually productively. As the scope of
> > self-organization investigated by FIS spans from molecules to
> > societies, many messages comment on how an advance in theory would
> > lead to "engineering" - forgive the word - techniques that would make
> > human society better. The more outrageous of these are calls to arms
> > to combat international conspiracies to murder children with
> > radioactive poison. But behind that noise is an honest attempt to
> > understand the dynamics at societal - and by this posters usually
> > mean political - levels.)
> >
> > Political systems to my mind is a matter of defining behavior and
> > mechanisms in three areas. At the "top" level are things that are a
> > matter of natural law, or appear to be so for all practical
> > consideration. Below that is a domain of the "social compact,"
> > conventions that evolve in societies as a community bargain where
> > each member pays a cost and receives a valuable benefit. The third
> > tier are simpler matters of automatic negotiation, where laws of
> > economics make it desirable to collaborate outside the social compact.
> >
> > An example of the first, at least in the US, is the notion that all
> > men should carry the same weight as agents in the system. Though this
> > is a modern idea that was clearly invented, it is treated by
> > Americans as though the "creator" made things this way. An example of
> > the second is proscription against theft; "ownership" of property is
> > a purely artificial concept and respect for it is an evolved matter
> > of the social compact. The third tier can be exemplified by a postal
> > service. Conservatives in the US are adamant that no one has a
> > "right" to postal service, and further that it is not something a
> > government SHOULD do. But they allow it because it makes economic
> > sense for the government to do it and serve everyone.
> >
> > People with different philosophies will put different things in
> > different bins, for instance in the US there is great debate over
> > "rights" and priorities of rights, and therefore which of the rights
> > is more natural and therefore basic.
> >
> > (Here, I digress to noet an outstanding FIS controversy about whether
> > "logic" is in the second or first category. Some adamantly hold that
> > the universe itself is logical in its fundamental nature, and others
> > - including myself - that logic is an evolved artifact of the social
> > compact in the evolution of science. But never mind.)
> >
> > What goes in what bin is less interesting than the evolutionary
> > mechanics at each level. Clearly they are different: the economic one
> > being easily engineered by changing metrics (the vocabulary of
> > discourse).
> >
> > Science has the same three tiers and they work in the same way. Since
> > FIS is both WITHIN science and ABOUT the structure of science, we
> > have to consider these dynamics - or whatever structure one uses
> > instead. So there is in my mind a complete congruence between FIS
> > examination of the evolution of science (with the science of
> > evolution) and the evolution of government political systems.
> >
> > I suppose that the stuff of the top level is determined by our
> > hardwiring. We know a lot about messages in logical content with
> > respect to that hardwiring. We know much less about messages in
> > musical content and what "language instinct" comes into play. With
> > music, I suppose more is on the "natural" side and with logic, more
> > on the "social compact" side.
> >
> > Whew - all that is by way of making a first stab at Juan's challenges
> > in the context of ongoing FIS dialog:
> >
> > WHAT IS MUSIC?
> > WHY IS THERE MUSIC?
> > COULD THERE BE MUSIC ELSEWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE?
> >
> > I suggest the grammar of music has as little to do with acoustics as
> > the meaning of written sentences has to do with the shapes of
> > letters. In the FIS context, "music" can be characterized as having
> > illogical content that relates in an orderly way in the receiving
> > mind. Therefore the mechanics of music in humans is more "natural,"
> > and more apt to inform us about the types of communications among
> > molecules, even though that statement carries Theosophical overtones.
> >
> > "Music" of this type exists because self-organizing systems do. The
> > most fundamental operation in any cognitive apparatus (human to
> > molecular) is symmetry-based, which is why Leyton finds group theory
> > natural to describe the aggregative organizing effect of information.
> > Fiber groups lend themselves well to his interest (memory and
> > situation) and my FIS interest (derived abstractions). There are
> > bundles that are formed internal to agents and those collectively
> > among agents. Where Michael doesn't go but FIS must is in looking at
> > how those abstractions define evolutionary mechanics at "lower"
> > levels of governance. And so, here we are with Jerry Chandler's
> > arguments of the importance of categories and functors across
> > abstractions (as bundles).
> >
> > Sorry for the length, Ted
> > --
> > Ted Goranson
> > Advanced Enterprise Research Office
> > _______________________________________________
> > fis mailing list
> > fis@listas.unizar.es
> > http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
> _______________________________________________
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
>

-- 
WHAT IS HOT !???
http://coforum.de:80/index.php4?InflictionofSuffering
 
LETTER To George W.
+
EDUCATION and the WORLD:
http://www.cafeweltgeist.org/htdocs/extra/en_congress_day2.html
Heiner Benking
http://co-forum.de/index.php4?HeBe
"There is no more delicate matter to take in
hand, 
no more dangerous to conduct, 
no more doubtful of success, 
than to step up as a leader in the
introduction of change.
For he who innovates will have for his enemies 
all those who are well off under the existing
order of things, 
and only lukewarm support in those 
who might be better off under the new".
                  Guess who wrote this... (N.M.)
My particular concern is the reception of change
in our genuine thinking and reasoning; 
something Bertrand Russel might have called
in "Man's Peril" <newthink> and what we
addressed in "Is Humanity destined to
self-destruct":
http://benking.de/caldwell.html
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