Re: [Fis] Molecular recognition and the foundamental laws of information

From: Dr. Shu-Kun Lin <[email protected]>
Date: Tue 22 Jul 2003 - 10:21:15 CEST

Dear Igor,

The examples of comparing symmetry you gave a moment ago
are not really correct. Both solid (static states) should be compared
when symmetry-stability is considered. Crystal is more symmetric than noncrystal and more stable.
Gas, liquid and solid are at different temperatures. Compare a homogenous (more symmetric)
liquid with a less homogenous liquid, the homogenous liquid system is more stable.
Compare a homogenous (more symmetric) gas with a less homogenous gas, the
homogenous gas system is obviously more stable.

I am also quite sceptical about formulating general principles within the existing paradigms.
That is why we must revise it. I tried along this line a little bit.

Shu-Kun

"Igor Rojdestvenski (by way of "Pedro C. Mariju�n" )" wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> As a physicist I would not agree with the symmetry principle as formulated below. It holds in certain situations, and it breaks in other. The case
> of phase transitions is one clear example. The more ordered state is less symmetric (crystall lattice is less symmetric than liquid, for example).
> But at low temperatures the system tends to go into less symmetric state, which becomes more stable. This is called "spontaneous beraking of
> symmetry".
>
> As to thermodynamics of molecular recognition, I also disagree that it is useless. It is just a different kind of thermodynamics, developed by
> Leontovich, Kantorovich, Balescu and other prominent people in statistical physics. It is called "nonequilibrium thermodynamics", and it can
> actually be applied at a molecular level given that the number of states of the system is substantially high. The microscopic version of it, the
> nonequilibrium statistical physics, is also quite useful.
>
> I would also be quite sceptical about formulating general principles within the existing paradigms. In my opinion, to formulate a postulate one
> needs to go beyond the existing axioms, paradigms and terminology, otherwise the statement will be either incorrect or trivial. Lobachevsky geometry
> does not exist within Euclidean geometry.
>
> Best, Igor
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gyorgy Darvas (by way of "Pedro C. Mariju�n" <marijuan@posta.unizar.es>)
> To: fis-listas.unizar.es
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 1:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Molecular recognition and the foundamental laws of information
>
> Dear Pedro, Dear Shu-Kun, Dear Colleagues,
>
>
> > "...the symmetry principle: the higher the symmetry, the more stable a system will be. Now (only now) we can consider the molecular
> > recognition
> > in details because thermodynamics is actually useless for molecular
> > recognition consideration. "
> >
> > It looks a very challenging statement. Does everybody agree with it?
> >
> > best
> >
> > Pedro
>
> I agree, although I must add 2 minor remarks.
> (1) Thermodynamics works also in the world of molecules. It does not work - in the proper way as we used to its application in physics - in the
> case of such phase transitions, when new higher organisational levels, i.e., qualitatively new structures emerge (e.g., a molecule from atoms).
> (2) Since the evolution arrows from more symmetric to less symmetric, I would formulate the above principle: the lower the symmetry, the less
> stable a system will be.
>
> Best,
> Gyuri
>
> Symmetry Festival 2003 http://www.conferences.hu/symmetry2003/
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Gyorgy Darvas darvasg@helka.iif.hu; h492dar@ella.hu
> http://www.mtakszi.iif.hu/darvas.htm
> S Y M M E T R I O N http://us.geocities.com/symmetrion/ [email protected]
> Address: c/o MTA KSZI; 18 Nador St., Budapest, H-1051 Hungary
> Mailing address: P.O. Box 994, Budapest, H-1245 Hungary
> Fax: 36 (1) 331-3161 Phone: 36 (1) 312-3022; 36 (1) 331-3975 ___________________________________________________________________
>
>

--
Dr. Shu-Kun Lin
Molecular Diversity Preservation International (MDPI)
Matthaeusstrasse 11, CH-4057 Basel, Switzerland
Tel. +41 79 322 3379, Fax +41 61 302 8918
e-mail: lin@mdpi.org
http://www.mdpi.org/lin
Received on Tue Jul 22 10:24:40 2003

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