RE: [Fis] CONCLUDING THE SESSION

Dear Soeren,

I agree: the two systems are structurally coupled. But perhaps, the
social system can sometimes generate meaning on the basis of the
interaction. In symbolic interactionism one distinguishes, for example,
"situational meaning". The carriers then function as the human source of
the variation.

With kind regards,

Loet

Ps. Pedro: I apologize for the transgression in previous mailings, but
this is a new week, isn't it? And I keep it parsimious.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro C. Mariju�n [mailto:marijuan@posta.unizar.es]
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 10:21 AM
> To: sbr.lpf@cbs.dk
> Cc: loet@leydesdorff.net
> Subject: Re: [Fis] CONCLUDING THE SESSION
>
>
> Please, abide to the two postings per week rule. ---Pedro
>
>
> At 15.11 16/10/03 +0200, you wrote:
> >Dear Loet
> >
> >Sorry to have been occupied elsewhere. I do not disagree with your
> >vision here and that the socio-communication field modulates
> knowledge
> >and meaning in this interpersonal field.
> >
> >My point is that it is done on the basis of meaning generated by the
> >embodied minds of individuals. We know then that they are already
> >linguistic cyborgs, because their individual minds become programmed
> >with language and through that culture, to be able to operate in the
> >social and thereby obtain the specific self reflective human
> >consciousness. Thereby the existential perspective is generated when
> >the social is reflected in the individual mind and its role
> and place
> >in the social world is pondered. I see no way out to avoid the
> >existential. If anything this is one of the most important
> factors of
> >the new level of consciousness that is generated be
> >socio-communication. Science is an important part of that. I insert
> >Wittgenstein's language games in Luhmann's theory theory,
> again to give
> >some grounding for how meaning emerges in language from our human
> >practices in the real social world.
> >
> >Loet Leydesdorff wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Soeren,
> > >
> > > We are getting closer, indeed.
> > >
> > > You formulate:
> > > > what this "substance in which information is
> communication" is and
> > > > that
> > > is the "medium of communication".
> > >
> > > > To me this is the field of meaning, and it is generated by the
> > > > embodied
> > > mind in living systems. Un-embodied systems like the computer can
> > > therefore not really produced meaning that means anything
> to humans.
> > > i claim that the biological and the psychological autopoietic
> > > systems produce this substance of meaning that the
> > > socio-communicative system then operates in and modulates! What
> > > about that?
> > >
> > > My point is that social systems produce meaning, e.g. situational
> > > meaning and codified meaning generated by scientific discourses,
> > > that can be understood by humans. I would agree with you that it
> > > would be impossible to understand this if the
> self-organization of
> > > pyschological systems were completely closed (as in Maturana's
> > > model). However, language here comes in as an evolutionary
> > > achievements which enables us to communicate both information and
> > > meaning at the same time. The communicated meaning is again
> > > appreciated at the receiving end by a human being, but s/he may
> > > attribute a different meaning to it. What was a meaning
> exchange at
> > > one moment in time, may be an information exchange at a
> next moment.
> > >
> > > If the self-organization of the social system were
> completely closed
> > > (this is Luhmann's position), the social system would be able to
> > > generate its own type of codification of the information
> > > ("meaning"), but we human being would never be able to
> know this as
> > > a participant. We would only be able to study society as another
> > > ecology. (This is Habermas's point against
> > > Luhmann!) However, we are (im)perfectly able to
> understand socially
> > > generated meaning, that is meaning as a result of interaction and
> > > communication. Scientific discourses are the example par
> excellence: they
> > > purify previous meaning by changing the meaning beyond
> the control of
> > > individual contributions. Thus, meaning is generated at the
> > supra-individual
> > > level and understood at the individual level to a
> variable degree.
> > > The distribution of the understanding then provides us
> with a first
> > > (not yet
> > > reflected) concept of meaning at the social (that is,
> distributed)
> > level. It
> > > provides the substance of this communication of meaning because
> > > meaning can be redistributed at this level.
> > >
> > > Because codification is recursive, the non-linear dynamics of
> > > meaning processing change the one-dimensional communication of
> > > information (input-output). For example, scientific
> knowledge can be
> > > further developed and be solidified in science-based technologies
> > > and innovation which change our realities behind our
> back. In other
> > > words, the dynamics of the system may change from agent-based to
> > > communication-based and then also knowledge-based. The crucial
> > > variable is the progression of the
> > codification
> > > of the information in more than a single dimension.
> > >
> > > The above should not be read as a fact, but as an expectation.
> > > However, entertaining this hypothesis enriches the
> heuristics in the
> > > sociological research design. (Let me stop here and not further
> > > explain this claim.)
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Loet
> >
> >--
> >Best wishes S�ren Brier
> >
> >Copenhagen Business School
> >Dept. of Management, Politics and Philosophy
> >Bl�g�rdsgade 23 B, 3. floor, room 326, DK-2200 Copenhagen N.
> Telephone
> >+45 38152208, mail sbr.lpf@cbs.dk .
> >
> >Old home page with full text papers:
> >http://www.flec.kvl.dk/personalprofile.asp?id=sbr&p=engelsk
> >
> >Ed. of Cybernetics & Human Knowing
> http://www.imprint-academic.com/C&HK
> >Subscription
> sandra@imprint.co.uk
> >
> >Speaker at the Heinz von Foerster conference
> >http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/2003/index.htm
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >fis mailing list
> >[email protected] http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
>

_______________________________________________
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
Received on Mon Oct 20 10:33:24 2003