Re: [Fis] The timings of meaning

Soeren said:

>As I see it then Ted Gorenson's and Robert Ulanowicz general approaches
>stands for the two opposite paradigms we have discussed. 1. One that
>want to introduce the concept of communication into nature such as the
>biosemioticians
      SS: I agree that this is an import of the semiotics movement in
respect to science, which is why it is resisted when recognized.

>and 2. one that wants to fit an information concept into
>the existing materialistic mechanistic view of nature that science so
>far has build on.
     SS: Here I think we need to dissociate materialism from mechanicism.
Organicism is materialist, but not mechanicist. However, the truth in
Soeren's statement can be found when one examines the fully developed
models of science, systems science, cybernetics, etc. All without
exception are as fully explicitly expressed as possible, and, alas, full
explicitness characterizes ONLY machines. Nature is to one degee or other
vague, while our models are crisp. If we wish to get away from the
mechanical attractor, we will need to develop some form of logic of
vagueness (fuzziness is a step in the right drection). Bob Ulanowicz's
move from probability to propensity is in the direction of vagueness. Note
that when the mathematician Whitehead wanted to talk about organicism, he
moved into a very murky form of prose!

Many of these have partly acknowledged Prigogine's
>claim for a paradigm of complexity and irreversibility opposing material
>mechanicism, but they still view nature as dead and rules by universal
>laws of nature.
     SS: I don't think this is quite fair, except as the only scientific
tools we have are fully crisp.

Some add an idea of systems, evolution and emergence on
>this view, using the emergence idea to explain the creation of life,
>first person experience and later consciousness. To me emergence is a
>description not a (causal) explanation.
     SS: True enough!

STAN

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Received on Wed Mar 31 23:04:54 2004