Re: [Fis] definition(s) of order/disorder ?

Gyorgy Darvas wrote:

> Devin's classification into "symmetric" and "grouping" order deserves
> attention.

Thanks Gyorgy! A good first word is always really helpful when
explaining something new. This is the most like-minded group of
scientists I have ever presented this model to. It is a very fundamental
method of understanding and worth analyzing carefully.

> - Atoms in a crystal are ordered (equal density), a glass is
> disordered (random density within the glass) --- this is a symmetric
> approach (or crsytallographic approach);
> - Atoms condensed (grouped) in one corner of a box are ordered (random
> density within the box), atoms of a gas filling free the full box
> (after certain time) are disordered (equal density) --- (this is what
> I call a thermodynamic approach, and) this may represent a grouping
> approach - if I did not misunderstand his definition.
>
> Globally:
> - in thermodynamic terms: symmetry and entropy increase, while order
> decreases.
> - in symmetric terms: all symmetry, order and entropy increase.
>
> Locally:
> - in thermodynamic terms: order increases, while symmetry decreases
> and entropy may decrease.
> - in symmetric terms: order and symmetry decrease, and entropy may
> also decrease.

Yes, globally and locally. Excellent clarification. One always must
consider frame of reference. A dense gas inside a box is grouping order
in reference to a (global) frame of reference beyond the box. In a frame
reference limited to the box (locally), the gas is evenly distributed
which is symmetry order. Of course the two orders can be re-applied to
any isolated or limited frame of reference. All the grouping internally
within a grocery store, or library, is also grouping referenced to the
global or exterior landscape, i.e., all the books in one place of a city.

As an example of an extreme reference shift, the squares of a
checkerboard can be moved so all the white squares are on one side and
all the black are on the other, so each half of the board is then one
color, the extreme of grouping order in a global reference. If we then
limit our reference frame to a single side of the board we find
ourselves inside a perfect symmetry of one solid color. Note that half
of the extreme of grouping order has properties identical to perfect
symmetry order. Both are uniform. All positives combined together create
a singularity compared to all of the positives and negatives combined
together creating a singularity. Our dimension of cosmological size is
completely in respect to these extremes. The point of the bang is
unimaginably small, while absolute zero is unimaginably large. Yet it is
accepted knowledge that a geometrically flat universe (WMAP) is always
infinitely extended, even at time zero. Some have confused the Alpha
state of the bang as perfect symmetry for this very reason. The point of
the big bang is a singularity only within a limited reference frame.
Beyond that reference frame it is a duality, all positive, half of the
whole. Time invariably begins from that state because time is
probabilistic, which means that time or change moves toward balance.
Thus the history of any system in a state of imbalance or asymmetry will
inevitably trace back to an ever greater extreme of imbalance.

Before it becomes an issue, randomness or irregularity can be best
considered in two dimensions, with dots along an invisible straight
line. The dots can be evenly spaced or grouped in the reference frame.
If evenly spaced, moving any dot reduces symmetry but increases grouping
order. Any direction away from grouping increases symmetry order. The
extremes in this scenario should be obvious by now, all overlapped in
one place versus thinned out into a continuous line.

What I am saying in general is that the entire spectrum of what is
possible exists between the two extremes, grouping and symmetry. Again
this is something we all are familiar with but don't commonly apply in
this way. We all know this fact as the concept of contrast. We can
increase the contrast of any image until it becomes two colors, white
and black, OR ELSE all the colors and shades of the image can be blended
together evenly which reduces the contrast to a minimum and turns the
image gray, a single uniform color. In reference to matter, at any
average measure of density, there is the extreme of a perfectly smooth
distribution (low contrast or symmetry order) but also there is the
extreme of a lumpy distribution (highest possible contrast or grouping
order) in any reference frame. I call this the contrast gradient, a
spectrum of possibilities bounded by two extremes. The space of all
possible states is actually bounded in all directions by extremes,
smooth and lumpy at any specific average density, and cosmic extremes of
the infinitely dense point of the bang (Alpha) and the flat zero density
space of absolute zero (Omega), which is a density gradient. The course
of time then is from Alpha to Omega along the density gradient (not from
order to disorder) but that course follows a basin of attraction
balanced between the smooth universe and lumpy universe extremes
(contrast gradient). Note that systems settling into an equilibrium
state do so in short-time durations in respect to the contrast gradient,
not the density gradient, which contributes to why a dense gas spreading
throughout a room spreads out in an irregular pattern. This while the
overall universe generally moves toward a complete equilibrium in deep
time.

> The two order-disorder concepts contradict to each other - although
> both are applied in their own domains.

Indeed Gyorgy, this is a very significant issue, the two distinct and
contradictory conceptual domains. Very interesting. Very profound. The
distinctiveness of each is most visible when two orders is applied to
mathematics in general. Each order derives it's own mathematical system
of comprehension. Each is a different perspective of reality. Science
presently perceives the universe mainly from the perspective of
grouping order, naturally so. It is the pronounced form of order we
naturally observe and need biologically to survive and prosper. So
uniformity becomes disorder. We see the world as materialistic, as many
separate things all of which are arisen above nothing. We count things,
one two three, more than zero things. The nature of grouping order is
form and definition, the finite world. From our current perspective,
matter is seen as being more than empty space, materialism,
reductionism, looking at the world from the bottom-up.

However, when switched into a perspective derived form symmetry order
everything changes. The axiom of nothing disappears, since zero becomes
the balanced whole. On either side of that scale you only have lesser
positives and lesser negatives. Identical but opposite. Matter and
anti-matter. Material form suddenly becomes less than a full uniform
space. Although science has begun to recognize the vacuum is not empty
we still normally assume empty space is a nothing, but empty space
technically is simply uniformity. Paint the universe all one color,
white, it becomes uniform and nothing is visible, but it still exists.
Commonly we confuse the word nothing with nonexistence when in fact
nothingness is a physical property, existent, applied properly only to
the analogy of a white canvas, i.e., uniformity. Ugly symmetry! In this
symmetry order perspective all that we know is less than everything, not
more than nothing. Rather than seeing matter as fundamental and space as
the extension of mass, we recognize in this mode that space is
fundamental and mass is the curvature of space. Particles become holes
in full space. And what we know of a universe is like existing within a
figure eight, the curvature of space extends inversely beyond a
collapsed point. The mirror universe that balances the equation and
makes the Universe whole, all of which is only visible when looking at
the universe from the top-down.

> There are also other aspects of the classification of order/disorder,
> symmetric/asymmetric relations and the arrow of the change of entropy:
> these are whether we investigate global or local (actual or potential)
> processes.

In my writings I have applied two orders mainly to cosmology by
exploiting the issue of extremes, which allowed me to discretely model
all possible states. There is too much to explain here in short but the
product is a zero centered cosmology where time and all forces of nature
are recognized to be probabilistic. I also have applied two orders to
mathematics, developing a very surprising value system where positive
and negative values combine rather than cancel.

Once fully understood it seems odd that the grouping and symmetry order
distinctions aren't standard knowledge. It shows how young we are still.
But hey, it's good to be young.

Sincerely,
Devin Harris

http://macrocosmicsymmetry.com
http://everythingforever.com
Received on Sun May 23 23:22:13 2004