Re: [Fis] definition(s) of disorder/chaos

From: Stanley N. Salthe <[email protected]>
Date: Thu 27 May 2004 - 23:11:58 CEST

Devin said:
>I was a bit surprised by the lack of direct discussion by this group
>concerning the intriguing issue of opposition between grouping and
>symmetry, in part because I assume most here are aware of Shu-Kun's
>correlation between symmetry and entropy. Can entropy simultaneously
>correlate with disorder as prescribed by Boltzmann (the second law). I
>can explain that the disintegration of grouping is invariably toward
>symmetry, not disorder. One response took notice but then it seemed like
>responses were toward silencing further discussion.

     One thing that leads me to resist thinking of symmetry as a kind of
order is that one reduces disorder (induces grouping) by deploying
information, and so it can be with symmetry as well. That is, one can
deploy informational constaints in such a way as to disrupt symmetry,
moving toward grouping. And so information, an attribute of order, can
have a similar relationship to disorder and symmetry. Here symmetry looks
disrderly.
     Now consider the game tic-tac-toe. A well played game, where each
move was blocked by another, might in the end look disorderly, but it is
certainly NOT random. Instead it is symmetrical according to the rules of
the game. In this case symmetry was CREATED by a deployment of
information, as would be required if symmetry was orderly. Here symmetry
looks orderly.
     And so it seems there is no one relationship between information and
symmetry, as there is with information and disorder (anti-grouping). This
seems to suggest that symmetry is something quite other than anything
related to order / disorder.

STAN

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Received on Thu May 27 22:18:25 2004

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