Dear Richard,
> Andrei,
>
> I have read some of the works of Hameroff, Penrose, Zizzi,
> Kauffman;
> and I have been fascinated by the Penrose-Hameroff
> Orchestrated
> Objective Reduction (Orch OR) argument. I particularly have
> enjoyed
> Hameroff suggestion that consciousness caused the Cambrian
> Explosion, and Zizzi Big Wow theory that Orch OR happened
> right=
> after everything coalesced into a single universe.
Let us be more realistic. We have an extremely large
neuronal machine and consciousness is produced by this machine. I do
not see need in many worlds, collaps and so on. My proposal is to
model cognitive processes by using quantum-like representations of
mental states in the complex Hilbert space.
> McFadden
> quantum evolution sides more with Prigogine and his
> entropy-spewing=
> dissipative structures. Still, what they are saying that
> matters
> most about the quantum of anything are those teensy-tiny
> material
> structures like fullerenes and microtubules.
>
> Why should I bother with such things if I am trying to
> apprehend
> biological QI?
Well we speaking about the same, but I am afraid that you miss the
difference between QUNATUM and QUANTUM-LIKE, see my previous Email.
I agree with you that you need not bother with quantum in biology.
But you could usefully apply quantum-like models.
I really don\'t think biological evolution
> reaches
> down far. Frankly, I don\'t think natural selection can distinguish
> a
> fullerene from microtubule any better than a dog can tell the
> difference between a gunnysack and a Persian rug.
>
> What seems oddest to me about this discussion on QI is its
> tendency=
> to avoid any quantum aspects genetic information, which is
> taken by
> some to mean pure information (Dawkins); and, as such, it is
> an
> irreducible aspect of Darwinian evolution. If there really is such
> a
> thing as QI in biological systems then the genes and their
> digital
> algorithms ought to be at least as important as the creative
> consciousness that caused the Cambrian Explosion to explode. Would
> I
> be any more speculative if I proposed that genes are the
> outright
> manifestations of Orch OR, cooperating out of a coincidental
> universe, where little bits of matter matter less than no matter at
> all?
Well, I do not think that wave function of the universe, Cambrian
Explosion, or quantum gravity have something to do with genetic
evolution. But I expect that a quantum-like genetic model might be
created.
All the best, Andrei
> Thanks. I have had my two posts for the week.
>
> =97Richard
>
> =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97
>
> Dear Richard,
>
> As I pointed in my previous Emails, one should not identify the
> mathematical formalism of QM (as well as QI) with its one special
> application, namely, to the description of probabilities (and hence
> information) for so called quantum systems. The formalism is
> essentially very general. It could be applied in particular in
> biology
> and genetics. But it should not be a reductionist application. One
> need
> not try reduce biological processes to dynamics of quantum systems
> (electrons, neutrons, photons, ... composing a biological system).
>
> My point of view (which was developed in details in my
> book:Information dynamics with applications to psychology, cognitive
> and social sciences and anomalous phenomena, Kluwer, Fundamental
> series in Physics) is that the mathematical formalism of QM (namely
> calculus of probabilities described by vectors and density matrices
> in
> the complex Hilbert space) could be used everywhere we want to
> represent information in the probabilistic framework by neglecting
> by
> huge amounts of information (which we are not able to get) about
> systems.
>
> I called such representations not quantum (by reserving the latter
> terminology for quantum systems), but quantum-like.
>
> I do not think that such a thing as quantum biology or genetics
> could
> be created, but quantum-like biological or genetic models might be
> created and they could be useful.
>
> I would like to make comparasion with the problem of applications of
> QM to decription of cognition. There was published a lot of paper
> about QUANTUM cognition (e.g., Roger Penrose connected it with
> quantum
> gravity). I do not think that there is some reality behind such
> speculations. There is the huge gap between quantum and neuronal
> scales!!! But we can speak about quantum-like cognition. In this
> approach we do not try to reduce cognitive processes to real quantum
> processes. But we say: cognition is a probabilistic representation
> of
> neuronal information. THis is a probabilistic projection of the
> detreministic world of billions of neurons to our feelings and
> sensations which are nothing else but probabilistic images extracted
> from the deterministic neuronal world. Since there is projection of
> information, one could apply quantum like models: in my book there
> is
> an algorithm for representing statistical data by complex
> probability
> amplitudes. After this one can work in quantum mathematical
> formalism.
>
> All the best, Andrei
>
>
>
> --Apple-Mail-2--913561095
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=WINDOWS-1252
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> <HTML><BODY DEFANGED_style=3D\"word-wrap: break-word;
> -khtml-nbsp-mode: spac=
> e; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; \"><P
class=3D\"MsoNormal\"
> DEFANGED_=
> style=3D\"mso-outline-level:1\"><DEFANGED_SPAN
style=3D\"\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Appl=
> e-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">Andrei,</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN></P><P
> class=3D\"=
> MsoNormal\"
DEFANGED_style=3D\"mso-outline-level:1\"><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"\"=
> ><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">I have read some of
> the wo=
> rks of Hameroff, Penrose, Zizzi, Kauffman; and I have been fascinated
> by th=
> e Penrose-Hameroff =93Orchestrated Objective Reduction=94 (Orch OR)
> argumen=
> t.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN style=3D\"mso-spacerun:
yes\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-st=
> yle-span\" face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-st=
> yle-span\" face=3D\"Arial\">I particularly have enjoyed
Hameroff=92s
> suggestio=
> n that consciousness caused the Cambrian Explosion, and Zizzi=92s
> =93Big Wo=
> w=94 theory that Orch OR happened right after everything coalesced
> into a s=
> ingle universe.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
style=3D\"mso-spacerun:
> yes\"><FONT clas=
> s=3D\"Apple-style-span\" face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
> </FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><FONT clas=
> s=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">McFadden=92s =93quantum
> evolution=94 =
> sides more with Prigogine and his entropy-spewing =93dissipative
> structures=
> .=94</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN style=3D\"mso-spacerun:
yes\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-=
> style-span\" face=3D\"Arial\">
</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-sty=
> le-span\" face=3D\"Arial\">Still, what they are saying
that matters most
> about=
> the quantum of anything are those teensy-tiny material structures
> like ful=
> lerenes and
microtubules.</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"\"><=
> FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
>
face=3D\"Arial\"></FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN></P><=
> P class=3D\"MsoNormal\"
> DEFANGED_style=3D\"mso-outline-level:1\"><DEFANGED_SPAN=
> style=3D\"font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-style-s=
> pan\" face=3D\"Arial\">Why should I bother with such
things if I am
> trying to =
> apprehend biological QI?</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
style=3D\"mso-spacerun:
> yes\"><=
> FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
> </FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><=
> FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">I really don=92t think
> biolo=
> gical evolution reaches down far.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"mso-spaceru=
> n: yes\"><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
> </FONT></DEFANG=
> ED_SPAN><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">Frankly, I
> don=92t =
> think natural selection can distinguish a fullerene from microtubule
> any be=
> tter than a dog can tell the difference between a gunnysack and a
> Persian r=
> ug.</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><DEFANGED_SPAN
style=3D\"\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-st=
> yle-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\"></FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN></P><P
> class=3D\"MsoNormal\" =
> DEFANGED_style=3D\"mso-outline-level:1\"><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"font-size:14=
> .0pt; font-family:Arial\"><FONT
class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
> face=3D\"Arial\">Wh=
> at seems oddest to me about this discussion on QI is its tendency to
> avoid =
> any =93quantum=94 aspects genetic information, which is taken by some
> to me=
> an =93pure information=94 (Dawkins); and, as such, it is an
> irreducible asp=
> ect of Darwinian evolution.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"mso-spacerun: yes=
> \"><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
> </FONT></DEFANGED_SPA=
> N><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">If there really is
> such a=
> thing as QI in biological systems then the genes and their digital
> algorit=
> hms ought to be at least as important as the creative consciousness
> that ca=
> used the Cambrian Explosion to explode.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=3D\"mso-s=
> pacerun: yes\"><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">=A0
> </FONT></=
> DEFANGED_SPAN><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">Would I
> be an=
> y more speculative if I proposed that genes are the outright
> manifestations=
> of Orch OR, cooperating out of a coincidental universe, where little
> bits =
> of matter matter less than no matter at
> all?</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><DEFANGE=
> D_SPAN style=3D\"\"><FONT
class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
> face=3D\"Arial\"></FONT></=
> DEFANGED_SPAN></P><P class=3D\"MsoNormal\"
> DEFANGED_style=3D\"mso-outline-leve=
> l:1\"><DEFANGED_SPAN style=3D\"font-size:14.0pt;
> font-family:Arial\"><FONT cla=
> ss=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">Thanks.</FONT><DEFANGED_SPAN
> style=
> =3D\"mso-spacerun: yes\"><FONT
class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
> face=3D\"Arial\">=A0 =
> I have</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><FONT
class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
> face=3D\"Arial=
> \"> had my two posts for the
> week.</FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN><DEFANGED_SPAN styl=
> e=3D\"\"><FONT class=3D\"Apple-style-span\"
> face=3D\"Arial\"></FONT></DEFANGED_SP=
> AN></P><P class=3D\"MsoNormal\"
> DEFANGED_style=3D\"mso-outline-level:1\"><DEFAN=
> GED_SPAN style=3D\"font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial\"><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple=
> -style-span\"
face=3D\"Arial\">=97Richard</FONT><FONT
> class=3D\"Apple-style-spa=
> n\"
>
face=3D\"Arial\"><O:P></O:P></FONT></DEFANGED_SPAN></P><DEFANGED_DIV>=97=
> =97=97=97=97=97=97=97</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV><BR
> class=3D\"khtml-block-=
> placeholder\"></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-=
> right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">Dear
> Richard,</DEFANGED=
> _DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
0px;
> margin-bott=
> om: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
> \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED=
> _DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;
> margi=
> n-left: 0px; \">As I pointed in my previous Emails, one should
not
> identify =
> the</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-right: 0px=
> ; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">mathematical formalism
of
> QM (as =
> well as QI) with its one special</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margi=
> n-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
> \">appl=
> ication, namely, to the description of probabilities (and
> hence</DEFANGED_D=
> IV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
> margin-bottom=
> : 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">information) for so called quantum
> systems. The =
> formalism is</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-r=
> ight: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">essentially
very
> general=
> . It could be applied in particular in
> biology</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV =
> style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-lef=
> t: 0px; \">and genetics. But it should not be a reductionist
> application. On=
> e need</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top:
0px;
> margin-right: =
> 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">not try reduce
> biological proc=
> esses to dynamics of quantum systems</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"m=
> argin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
> 0px; \">=
> (electrons, neutrons, photons, ... composing a biological
> system).</DEFANGE=
> D_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
0px;
> margin-bot=
> tom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
> \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGE=
> D_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
> 0px; marg=
> in-left: 0px; \">My point of view (which was developed in details
in
> my</DEF=
> ANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
> margin=
> -bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">book:Information dynamics with
> applicatio=
> ns to psychology, cognitive</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margin-top=
> : 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
\">and
> socia=
> l sciences and anomalous phenomena, Kluwer,
> Fundamental</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFA=
> NGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom:
> 0px; m=
> argin-left: 0px; \">series in Physics) is that the mathematical
> formalism of=
> QM (namely</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-ri=
> ght: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">calculus of
> probabilities=
> described by vectors and density matrices
> in</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV s=
> tyle=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-left=
> : 0px; \">the complex Hilbert space) could be used everywhere we
want
> to</DE=
> FANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
> margi=
> n-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">represent information in the
> probabilist=
> ic framework by neglecting by</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margin-t=
> op: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
> \">huge am=
> ounts of information (which we are not able to get)
> about</DEFANGED_DIV><DE=
> FANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
> margin-bottom: 0px;=
> margin-left: 0px;
\">systems.</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margin-t=
> op: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
> min-heigh=
> t: 14px; \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margi=
> n-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">I called
such
> represe=
> ntations not quantum (by reserving the
> latter</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV s=
> tyle=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-left=
> : 0px; \">terminology for quantum systems), but
> quantum-like.</DEFANGED_DIV>=
> <DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
> margin-bottom: 0=
> px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
> \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV =
> style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-lef=
> t: 0px; \">I do not think that such a thing as quantum biology or
> genetics c=
> ould</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-right: 0p=
> x; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">be created, but
> quantum-like bio=
> logical or genetic models might be</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"mar=
> gin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
> 0px; \">cr=
> eated and they could be useful.</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margin=
> -top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
> min-hei=
> ght: 14px; \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top:
> 0px; mar=
> gin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">I would
like
> to mak=
> e comparasion with the problem of applications
> of</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_D=
> IV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-=
> left: 0px; \">QM to decription of cognition. There was published
a lot
> of pa=
> per</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-right: 0px=
> ; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">about QUANTUM
cognition
> (e.g., Ro=
> ger Penrose connected it with
quantum</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"=
> margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
> 0px; \"=
> >gravity). I do not think that there is some reality behind
> such</DEFANGED_=
> DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
0px;
> margin-botto=
> m: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">speculations. There is the huge gap
> between qua=
> ntum and neuronal</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top:
> 0px; mar=
> gin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
\">scales!!! But
> we ca=
> n speak about quantum-like cognition. In
> this</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV s=
> tyle=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-left=
> : 0px; \">approach we do not try to reduce cognitive processes to
real
> quant=
> um</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-right: 0px;=
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">processes. But we say:
> cognition i=
> s a probabilistic representation of</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"ma=
> rgin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
> 0px; \">n=
> euronal information. THis is a probabilistic projection of
> the</DEFANGED_DI=
> V><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
> margin-bottom:=
> 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">detreministic world of billions of
neurons
> to our=
> feelings and</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-=
> right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">sensations
which
> are no=
> thing else but probabilistic images
> extracted</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV s=
> tyle=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
> margin-left=
> : 0px; \">from the deterministic neuronal world. Since there is
> projection o=
> f</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right:
> 0px; =
> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">information, one could
apply
> quantu=
> m like models: in my book there is</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"mar=
> gin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
> 0px; \">an=
> algorithm for representing statistical data by complex
> probability</DEFANG=
> ED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right:
0px;
> margin-bo=
> ttom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">amplitudes. After this one can
work in
> quant=
> um mathematical formalism.</DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
> style=3D\"margin-top:=
> 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
> min-height: =
> 14px; \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV
style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
> margin-r=
> ight: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; \">All the best,
> Andrei</DE=
> FANGED_DIV><DEFANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
> margi=
> n-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
> \"><BR></DEFANGED_DIV><DE=
> FANGED_DIV style=3D\"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
> margin-bottom: 0px;=
> margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; \"><BR
> class=3D\"khtml-block-placeholder=
> \"></DEFANGED_DIV></BODY></HTML>
> --Apple-Mail-2--913561095--
>
With Best Regards,
Andrei Khrennikov
Director of International Center for Mathematical Modeling in Physics,
Engineering, Economy and Cognitive Sc.,
University of Vaxjo, Sweden
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Received on Mon Jun 26 22:02:44 2006
