Foundations of Information Science : stdin : Re: [Fis] Realism

From: Rafael Capurro <[email protected]>
Date: Mon 26 Jun 2006 - 22:01:32 CEST

Dear Gordana

thanks for your comments. I have no problem with methodological reductionisms. Indeed, it is not possible to do science, I think, if we do not take a specific perspective on the basis of presuppositions that we do not question when we do *normal science*. What I called *declaration of faith* goes (sometimes) one step further and is affirmative with regard to the nature of *what is*. It is this kind of second order reductionism that we should be aware of. I mean, *aware of* in two directions *any* determination with regard to *what is* presupposes what George Spencer Brown calls the *unmarked space*.

The *unmarked space" or what some philosophers also call the *indeterminacy of Being* concerns the possibility (methodologically and existentially) of going beyond what we necessarily think *it is* when we do science. Without it we would be prisoners of our own theories. I have developed this idea in this paper: http://www.capurro.de/oxford.html

No question concerning what in former times was called *the existence of the outside world*. I am a realist *in this sense* just because the question itself is a petitio principii. But at the same time, the fact that we are *already* in the world and have no possibility of looking at it/at us *from the outside* is something that we should (could) not consider as negative, asking for a *solid foundation* (of our theories and existences). This is what metaphysics looks for and also comes out in unreflected *declarations of faith*.

Any answer we get from nature seems to invite us to say: 'yes, this is *the* way things *are*' And so we tend to rest and be happy. Maybe we need also this kind of, Shakespeare would say, *comic relief*, we breathe deeply and say: ok, things are *just* this or that. No more, no less. But, h�las... This fundamental incoherence between our thoughts/theories and what things *in themselves* (pace Kant) are, is what wakes us up and we understand that we are partners with *another* and that *reality* flourishes out of such an interactive *metabolism* even in its very physical dimension.

Then, *what is an atom?* or *what is a molecule?* and *what is the intertweening of our being* as a *product* and as a *partner* in this dynamic (=potential) process? I think that the strenght of the information paradigm, if we reflect it from this dialogical-informational perspective, is that it reflects this interactive dimension of reality construction. The alternative is the (Aristotelian) dynamism of *in-formation* of what is *already there* (potentially) striving for its pre-determined goal. If this is what *physics* is looking for, we can take profit of it too. No question.

kind regards

Rafael

  Estos datos �que tal?
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Rafael Capurro
    To: Susana Perez Gomar
    Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 5:12 AM
    Subject: Re: Fotos

buen dia susanita,

    para evitar que el sitio de juan bautista devenga demasiado recargado
    he puesto la historia de nuestros abuelos y sus descendientes en
    un lugar separado:
    http://www.capurro.de/capurro_etchegaray.html
    de modo que Juan Bautista queda asi
    http://www.capurro.de/JBCapurro.html

    Te he puesto como co-autora del texto de papun y mami. Revisalo
    bien: me faltan datos (hijos de Eduardo por ej.) y tambien datos
    del casamiento (dia,anio), datos de la familia de mami: sus padres
    y hermanos. Tengo solo la foto de Tatita Etchegaray pero no de su
    madre ni de sus abuelos (por parte de madre y padre). Para comparar
    fijate en este sitio de mi abuela materna:
    http://www.capurro.de/ema_piaggio.html

bueno, esto es todo por el momento. Anadi, ahora si, la foto con los bisnietos de mami...

    rafael
    Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
    Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
    Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
    E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
    Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
    Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
    Homepage: www.capurro.de
    Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
    Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Susana Perez Gomar
      To: Rafael Capurro
      Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:56 AM
      Subject: Re: Fotos

      Eso es un imposible. Pero si piensas en esa generaci�n ( ya muchos son casados ) que viene y se pueden ver y encontrar en una de esas ser�a lindo para ellos.�qu� te parece?.Como tu quieras.
      Est� espectacular!!!. las fotos quedaron impecables donde las pusistes.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rafael Capurro
        To: Susana Perez Gomar
        Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:39 PM
        Subject: Re: Fotos

        date una vuelta por el sitio, creo que va quedando
        cada vez mejor. La foto de los primos es fantastica pero
        no se si ponerla porque implicaria explicar quien es quien!
        y esto es casi imposible, no?!

        Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
        Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
        Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
        E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
        Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
        Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
        Homepage: www.capurro.de
        Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
        Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Susana Perez Gomar
          To: Rafael Capurro
          Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:28 AM
          Subject: Re: Fotos

          De esa foto no recuerdo.
          No tengo la menor idea sobre que va a pasar.
          �Qu� te pareci� la de los primos?
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Rafael Capurro
            To: Susana Perez Gomar
            Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:21 PM
            Subject: Re: Fotos

            yo me acuerdo de una foto de papun y mami en la Pastoral
            tomando el desayuno (?) en la parte de atras de la casa
            sentado frente a una mesa redonda que era como el tronco
            de un arbol...
            tenes idea que va a pasar con el "material familiar" que
            seguramente tenia Lucho? (luego de la muerte de Raquel
            hace pocos dias)?

            Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
            Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
            Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
            E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
            Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
            Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
            Homepage: www.capurro.de
            Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
            Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Susana Perez Gomar
              To: Rafael Capurro
              Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:54 PM
              Subject: Re: Fotos

              Estoy haciendo un esfuerzo para adivinar quienes son.
              En la de arriba parece mam� y si hay otra persona no la llego a ver.
              En la de abajo a la derecha parece ser Mami y a su izquierda �podr�a ser Pap�n?
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Rafael Capurro
                To: Susana Perez Gomar
                Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:42 PM
                Subject: Re: Fotos

alguna foto de La Pastoral con Papun y mami seria lindo...

                Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
                Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
                Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
                E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
                Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
                Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
                Homepage: www.capurro.de
                Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
                Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Susana Perez Gomar
                  To: Rafael Capurro
                  Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:31 PM
                  Subject: Re: Fotos

                  Me hac�s reir de lo lindo!!!
                  No te imaginas la fama que ten�a de un hombre enormemente generoso.
                  �Quer�s fotos de La Pastoral?
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Rafael Capurro
                    To: Susana Perez Gomar
                    Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:23 PM
                    Subject: Re: Fotos

                    a si, ya veo, Rafael Capurro Ruano, no dejo descendencia,
                    como este otro Rafael Capurro Fonseca! debe de haber algo
                    magico-malefico en este nombre y apellido. En el cementerio
                    vi una placa que dice: Rafael Capurro. Me quede contento de
                    ver que ya estoy bajo tierra!

                    Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
                    Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
                    Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
                    E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
                    Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
                    Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
                    Homepage: www.capurro.de
                    Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
                    Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Susana Perez Gomar
                      To: Rafael Capurro
                      Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:01 PM
                      Subject: Fotos

                      Hermano de Pap�n (Dr.en medicina � gran hombre!)en la segunada vas a ver varios conocidos, el del centro es Pap�n.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Rafael Capurro
                        To: Susana Perez Gomar
                        Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:57 PM
                        Subject: Re: Aclaraci�n

buena idea, ya esta hecha!

                        Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
                        Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
                        Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
                        E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
                        Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
                        Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
                        Homepage: www.capurro.de
                        Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
                        Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Susana Perez Gomar
                          To: Rafael Capurro
                          Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:03 PM
                          Subject: Aclaraci�n

                          Rafael le mostr� a Juacho y le parece mejor que pongas Susana Capurro Etchegaray as� se ve la relaci�n de abuela, madre y nieta. No s� si eso te complica.
                          Le encant� lo que est�s haciendo,
                          Te manda un abrazo.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Rafael Capurro
                            To: Susana Perez Gomar
                            Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:08 PM
                            Subject: Re: Mas fotos

estupendo, gracias.
Sabes la direccion de la casa (calle etc.?)

y quien es quien en la foto de la playa?

                            Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
                            Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
                            Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
                            E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
                            Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
                            Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
                            Homepage: www.capurro.de
                            Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
                            Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Susana Perez Gomar
                              To: Rafael Capurro
                              Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:00 PM
                              Subject: Mas fotos

Aqu� te mando m�s fotos por si te interesan.
La de la playa es de 1934.

Dear Rafael & Dear colleagues,

Allow me to try to advocate reductionism. I know how unpopular it might be.
Reductionism is an ideal of a physicist (and yes please, notice the important distinction made by Steven Weinberg between petty reductionism and grand reductionism!) http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=1785 The ideal of grand reductionism is to find the most general underlying physical principles for the physical reality. What else would we expect of a physicist?

I also believe that no reasonable physicist today believes that atoms can account directly for all the diversity of this complex world, not even of the physical phenomena alone. But they make an enormous amount of sense at certain levels of abstraction.

Lets consider "panatomism" - the claim that mater is made of atoms.
Of course theory of atomic structure of matter can not help us to solve ethical problems of humanity. But it is very good to know that matter consists of atoms. There is a range of phenomena that atomic theory can account for and its very generality is an enormously powerful feature.

I agree that in questions metaphysical, such as in the choice of the general framework of realism or anti-realism (Ontological? Epistemological? Is anti-realism synonymous with Platonism or with constructivism? - It is not always clear.)

In any event the choice of metaphysical framework is nothing that you have scientific proof for, but some research communities (for good reasons I would say) prefer ontological realism (physical sciences are typical example), some communities tend towards Platonism (mathematicians are sometimes inclined towards this) - and I guess that what makes certain framework attractive is its intuitive appeal to the research community.

Are scientist more qualified to impose their own frameworks (based on their own intuitions) within their research fields? I think they are.
The same way we trust medical doctors when they make judgments of our complicated health state, the same way we may trust physicist's ontological realism. If they don't have the right intuition, who has?

Of course, it is a question of intuition, not of knowledge, and it is worth to make that distinction - I agree.

  All the best,
  Gordana
  http://www.idt.mdh.se/personal/gdc/

Rafael Capurro wrote:
Dear all,

    declarations of faith are declaration of faith.
    Nothing more, nothing less. They are self-contradictory in case they are
    supposed to be the truth about reality. In that case they are no recongnized
    as declarations of faith. The faith of a scientist that acknowledges to be a
    (materialist) realist is no less a faith than the one that believes reality
    is "just" numbers (or bits or...). The poverty of reductionisms is that they
    give the impression that in the long run we just need to make, as in this
    case, good physics and everything will be explained. This is not very
    realistic, in fact.
    kind regards
    Rafael

    Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
    Hochschule der Medien (HdM) - Stuttgart Media University, Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
    Private: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
    E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de; capurro@hdm-stuttgart.de
    Voice Stuttgart: + 49 - 711 - 25706 - 182
    Voice private: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
    Homepage: www.capurro.de
    Homepage ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
    Homepage IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Devereux" <dbar_x@cybermesa.com>
    To: "FIS Mailing List" <fis@listas.unizar.es>
    Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 8:58 PM
    Subject: [Fis] Realism

Dear Arne and colleagues,

      There is an essential reason, I believe, why nearly all physical scientists are realists. There would be no physical science without realism. Perhaps the most fundamental assumption upon which physical science depends is the conviction that all of us are imbedded in the same, objective physical reality.
      I understand that one cannot prove this deductively, but the inductive evidence seems, to most of us, to be overwhelming. From the very beginning of physical science, through to the present, all of our scientific accomplishments rely on a description of nature that is observer independent. We�ve incorporated Gallilean relativity into the fundament of classical physics. All the classical equations of motion are observer independent. Would there be anything at all left of the physical sciences if we discarded classical mechanics?
      It is exactly the consistency and usefulness of the physical sciences that argues, irrefutably, I believe, for the validity of the axioms upon which physical science depends. Statistical mechanics, hydrodynamics, electrodynamics, and others cannot stand without classical mechanics. So, we physical scientists must adamantly refuse to concede that because realism is not deductively derivable, it might not be correct.
      I note that Einstein built both his theories of relativity, special and general, on the postulate of observer independence. Should we throw out those extraordinarily valuable and consistent theories because we wish to debate the lack of a deductive argument for realism? I�m sure that quantum mechanics (which also employs classical mechanics via the Hamiltonian formalism, Poisson Brackets, etc.) does not imply observer dependence, though some eminent physicists, like Wigner and von Neumann, have read it that way.
      The accepted understanding of the wavefunction, Psi, was given in the early 1920s by Max Born. As you know, If we wish to calculate the probability for each possible measured value of the system we take the projection of the eigenfunction for that value on the wave function, then calculate the inner product with Psi*. That we are predicting a probability for a measured outcome does not, at all, imply that human consciousness plays any part in the measurement. In fact, as Hawking, Penrose, and so many other physicists have so carefully calculated, there is every reason to believe that quantum mechanics described the cosmos billions of years before any humans and their conscious minds existed.
      In general, measurement is information exchange between two separate physical objects. Neither object need be human, of course. The canonical model for a measurement that transfers one bit of information is the bi-level atom located along one arm of the Stern-Gerlach apparatus described in 1978 (Physics Reports) by Scully, Shea, and McCullen. When a spinning molecule collides with the bi-level atom, a single quantum of energy is transferred to the atom. This is a real, physical, energetic signal that carries information about the change in energy of the molecule to the atom. Since energy is always conserved, the energy jump in the detector atom always records the exact information about the change in energy of the molecule.
      One may, of course, still ask how human beings are able to observe properties of our shared physical reality. I�m convinced that at the most basic level of human percepta, more fundamental than learned, or perhaps innate, shapes and objects, we all look at the same pattern of minute color specks and see (and describe) the same specks. The key here is to look only for each speck of color, as one might do to a pointillist painting by Signac, say, ignoring any impression of physical objects that the artist may have portrayed. If necessary, scientists could employ such a basic technique to insure that the pattern which carries information about results of a measurement (like the face of an ammeter, for instance) really is observer independent. I�m convinced that there are no cultually-inculcated tendencies at this most basic level.
      Cordially,

Michael Devereux

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Received on Mon Jun 26 22:03:39 2006