Re: [Fis] Tom Stonier

Thank you very lighting fast reply

Tom started the article by looking at the difficulty to define the term
<information> despite its ubiquituous use. He then looked at a number of
'popula' attempts to define <information> and dealt with the implicit
inconsistencies and difficulties. The rest of the article was devoted to his
insights on the isomorhic (my choice of phrase) relationship between the
terms <information> and <energy>.

That is the best I can do for the moment.

many thanx

chrisk

----- Original Message -----
From: "heiner benking" <heiner_benking@gmx.net>
To: "Chris Klopper" <syntagm@icon.co.za>; <f.nahrada@magnet.at>
Cc: <fis@listas.unizar.es>; <grossman@coin.org>;
<tripathi@statistik.uni-dortmund.de>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Tom Stonier

> Dear Chris
> Dear Ted
> I was in Vienna years ago, met Tom and we had a great time together with
my
> friend FRANZ NAHRADA (to whom I CC:)
> Franz might know right-away. I will think about the article and search a
> little. MAYBE you can give a littel more context and details and stay in
> touch !?
>
> TED WROTE:
> > > "Music" of this type exists because self-organizing systems do. The
> > > most fundamental operation in any cognitive apparatus (human to
> > > molecular) is symmetry-based, which is why Leyton finds group theory
> > > natural to describe the aggregative organizing effect of information.
> > > Fiber groups lend themselves well to his interest (memory and
> > > situation) and my FIS interest (derived abstractions). There are
> > > bundles that are formed internal to agents and those collectively
> > > among agents. Where Michael doesn't go but FIS must is in looking at
> > > how those abstractions define evolutionary mechanics at "lower"
> > > levels of governance. And so, here we are with Jerry Chandler's
> > > arguments of the importance of categories and functors across
> > > abstractions (as bundles).
> > >
> > > Sorry for the length, Ted
> > > --
> > > Ted Goranson
>
> Dear TED
> Is Artigiani on this list:??? maybe we can connect an old reference in
here:
> ARTIGIANI / LASZLO:
> ... Changing Visions': This book, with the sub-title: Human Cognitive
Maps -
> Past, Present,
> and Future', (Laszlo, Artigiani, et al.) is basic to understanding the ...
> http://benking.de/meta-paradigm.htm
> or here:
> Prepared as an Invited Keynote Address: Culture of Peace - ...
> ... world-views. A good primer for this subject is the book `Changing
> Visions'
> by Laszlo, Artigiani, Combs, Csányi (1996). The author ...
> http://benking.de/Culture_of_Peace.htm
>
> we are one in this, maybe we check out some work we do/did some years ago
at
> the MOZARTEUM in Salzburg and what we tried in Altenberg at KLI :
> *********
>
> I base to some degree on PAUL WEISS and JAY KLINE. Maybe if you know that
> you can see pattern fields or overlaying senses with me some day - as in
> such
> models we can make concrete the individual and collective "access and
> assimilation" KLUWER 1989 or so:
> GeoJournal 26
> The Integrity Papers - James N. Rose, Genre Heiner Benking US Website.
> GeoJournal
> 26.3 323-334 Ó 1992 (March) Access and Assimilation: Access and
> Assimilation: ...
> www.ceptualinstitute.com/genre/ benking/aa/acc&assim.htm - 63k - Cached -
> Similar pages
>
> visualization.htm
> ... European Networks (TEN) project, MOSAIC, devoted to Multimedia Access
to
> Europe's ... e-mail:
> kim_veltman@hotmail.com Heiner Benking has an engineering degree and ...
> www.ceptualinstitute.com/genre/benking/ visual/visualization.htm
>
>
> Yes Jerry is a great guy, I think he was with us in Granada last year and
> was quite fast "focussing the antennas"...: ISKO, Granada: but I am not
sure
> (is he part of FIS!??)
> http://benking.de/granda2002-dateien/frame.htm
> where we focussed on the representation and ethics "conundrum"
>
>
> I will also CC to PARKER ROSSMAN and ARUN as what you are struggling with
> has mcuh to do with the FUTURE OF THE UNIVERSITY project trilogy:
> http://ecolecon.missouri.edu/globalresearch/chapters/3-05.html
>
>
> cheers
> Heiner
> http://coforum.de/index.php4?HeinerBenking
>
>
> > Friends
> >
> > I am a new FISitor.
> >
> > I will lurk for a while. However, i joined while in search for an
article
> > by
> > Tom Stonier. Some 3 -4 years ago i found an article in which he sketched
> > (over the course of some 7 -8 pages) the outlines of his departure point
> > on
> > the nature of the universe. I lost the aritcle in one of the numerous
> > catastrophes with changing and unstable operating systems. Despite the
> > fact
> > that i lack a detailed reference i sense that members of this list may
be
> > able to point me in the right direction.
> >
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> >
> > chris k
> >
> > PS There is a mature courteousness evident on your list that is very
> > appealing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ted Goranson" <tedg@sirius-beta.com>
> > To: "fis-listas.unizar.es" <fis@listas.unizar.es>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 2:59 AM
> > Subject: [Fis] Music, Leyton, Governance (Longish)
> >
> >
> > > Friends-
> > >
> > > Forgive me as I try to integrate more than one FIS thread among those
> > > pinging about in my brain.
> > >
> > > I greatly appreciate that the topic has shifted to music. It seems
> > > different enough that we may actually get some fresh perspectives,
> > > especially with the entry of the new-to-FIS views of Michael Leyton.
> > >
> > > First a disclaimer: I know Leyton's work and so admire it am
> > > incorporating it into an agenda of my own somewhat alien to
> > > Michael's. And as I have said on this list, those three foci:
> > > Leyton's own imperative, my application need and the focus of the FIS
> > > group may be useful complements but it would be a mistake (for me) to
> > > conflate or confuse them.
> > >
> > > As I understand the FIS agenda, it takes a fresh look at the nature
> > > of the "message" in certain phenomenon and looks for new laws that
> > > pertain to that "information" rather than the behavior usually
> > > associated with it. In many cases, this will involve redefining or
> > > even creating a new notion of that message: for instance in the
> > > "dialog" among molecules.
> > >
> > > Juan's approach to music starts with the phenomenon of the carrier,
> > > an approach one would expect of a physicist. I, of course, agree with
> > > most everything he says. Michael does the opposite: starting with how
> > > the receiver is affected by and incorporates the message, developing
> > > a notion of information in the context of history/memory/situation
> > > and then projecting backwards into the nature of the message. This
> > > also is understandable as from a cognitive scientist. As I say, I
> > > find this latter approach extremely useful because (my speculation
> > > here:) it fits ANY kind of message, allows a concise ALGEBRA over
> > > history and information, and as I will conclude below can describe
> > > memory of systems as well as individuals.
> > >
> > > But Michael's success comes at the cost of the FIS agenda. He can
> > > impute the token of information as an element of the history and stop
> > > there. FISers can make something of that imputation and define
> > > information tokens in the "pure" as Stonier and Conrad would have it,
> > > or look at the grammar of that information as Matsuno and Marijuan
> > > do. I'm up for that: enthused about it. But I have to keep in mind
> > > that it may not be in Michael's program to do so, because everything
> > > in his argument depends on the situating of the tokens.
> > >
> > > But yet, let's try. And here I wish to bring in another thread: the
> > > structure of science and government.
> > >
> > > (Note to Michael: the FIS list often goes off on tangents from the
> > > programmed topic, usually productively. As the scope of
> > > self-organization investigated by FIS spans from molecules to
> > > societies, many messages comment on how an advance in theory would
> > > lead to "engineering" - forgive the word - techniques that would make
> > > human society better. The more outrageous of these are calls to arms
> > > to combat international conspiracies to murder children with
> > > radioactive poison. But behind that noise is an honest attempt to
> > > understand the dynamics at societal - and by this posters usually
> > > mean political - levels.)
> > >
> > > Political systems to my mind is a matter of defining behavior and
> > > mechanisms in three areas. At the "top" level are things that are a
> > > matter of natural law, or appear to be so for all practical
> > > consideration. Below that is a domain of the "social compact,"
> > > conventions that evolve in societies as a community bargain where
> > > each member pays a cost and receives a valuable benefit. The third
> > > tier are simpler matters of automatic negotiation, where laws of
> > > economics make it desirable to collaborate outside the social compact.
> > >
> > > An example of the first, at least in the US, is the notion that all
> > > men should carry the same weight as agents in the system. Though this
> > > is a modern idea that was clearly invented, it is treated by
> > > Americans as though the "creator" made things this way. An example of
> > > the second is proscription against theft; "ownership" of property is
> > > a purely artificial concept and respect for it is an evolved matter
> > > of the social compact. The third tier can be exemplified by a postal
> > > service. Conservatives in the US are adamant that no one has a
> > > "right" to postal service, and further that it is not something a
> > > government SHOULD do. But they allow it because it makes economic
> > > sense for the government to do it and serve everyone.
> > >
> > > People with different philosophies will put different things in
> > > different bins, for instance in the US there is great debate over
> > > "rights" and priorities of rights, and therefore which of the rights
> > > is more natural and therefore basic.
> > >
> > > (Here, I digress to noet an outstanding FIS controversy about whether
> > > "logic" is in the second or first category. Some adamantly hold that
> > > the universe itself is logical in its fundamental nature, and others
> > > - including myself - that logic is an evolved artifact of the social
> > > compact in the evolution of science. But never mind.)
> > >
> > > What goes in what bin is less interesting than the evolutionary
> > > mechanics at each level. Clearly they are different: the economic one
> > > being easily engineered by changing metrics (the vocabulary of
> > > discourse).
> > >
> > > Science has the same three tiers and they work in the same way. Since
> > > FIS is both WITHIN science and ABOUT the structure of science, we
> > > have to consider these dynamics - or whatever structure one uses
> > > instead. So there is in my mind a complete congruence between FIS
> > > examination of the evolution of science (with the science of
> > > evolution) and the evolution of government political systems.
> > >
> > > I suppose that the stuff of the top level is determined by our
> > > hardwiring. We know a lot about messages in logical content with
> > > respect to that hardwiring. We know much less about messages in
> > > musical content and what "language instinct" comes into play. With
> > > music, I suppose more is on the "natural" side and with logic, more
> > > on the "social compact" side.
> > >
> > > Whew - all that is by way of making a first stab at Juan's challenges
> > > in the context of ongoing FIS dialog:
> > >
> > > WHAT IS MUSIC?
> > > WHY IS THERE MUSIC?
> > > COULD THERE BE MUSIC ELSEWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE?
> > >
> > > I suggest the grammar of music has as little to do with acoustics as
> > > the meaning of written sentences has to do with the shapes of
> > > letters. In the FIS context, "music" can be characterized as having
> > > illogical content that relates in an orderly way in the receiving
> > > mind. Therefore the mechanics of music in humans is more "natural,"
> > > and more apt to inform us about the types of communications among
> > > molecules, even though that statement carries Theosophical overtones.
> > >
> > > "Music" of this type exists because self-organizing systems do. The
> > > most fundamental operation in any cognitive apparatus (human to
> > > molecular) is symmetry-based, which is why Leyton finds group theory
> > > natural to describe the aggregative organizing effect of information.
> > > Fiber groups lend themselves well to his interest (memory and
> > > situation) and my FIS interest (derived abstractions). There are
> > > bundles that are formed internal to agents and those collectively
> > > among agents. Where Michael doesn't go but FIS must is in looking at
> > > how those abstractions define evolutionary mechanics at "lower"
> > > levels of governance. And so, here we are with Jerry Chandler's
> > > arguments of the importance of categories and functors across
> > > abstractions (as bundles).
> > >
> > > Sorry for the length, Ted
> > > --
> > > Ted Goranson
> > > Advanced Enterprise Research Office
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > fis mailing list
> > > fis@listas.unizar.es
> > > http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > fis mailing list
> > fis@listas.unizar.es
> > http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> WHAT IS HOT !???
> http://coforum.de:80/index.php4?InflictionofSuffering
>
> LETTER To George W.
>
> +
>
> EDUCATION and the WORLD:
> http://www.cafeweltgeist.org/htdocs/extra/en_congress_day2.html
>
>
> Heiner Benking
> http://co-forum.de/index.php4?HeBe
>
> "There is no more delicate matter to take in
> hand,
> no more dangerous to conduct,
> no more doubtful of success,
> than to step up as a leader in the
> introduction of change.
> For he who innovates will have for his enemies
> all those who are well off under the existing
> order of things,
> and only lukewarm support in those
> who might be better off under the new".
> Guess who wrote this... (N.M.)
>
> My particular concern is the reception of change
> in our genuine thinking and reasoning;
> something Bertrand Russel might have called
> in "Man's Peril" <newthink> and what we
> addressed in "Is Humanity destined to
> self-destruct":
> http://benking.de/caldwell.html
>
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
> Bitte lächeln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage!
>

_______________________________________________
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
Received on Sat May 10 11:40:37 2003